I would like to comment on this stupid phrase. First of all, it’s in poor Irish. Gaeilge (=Gaedhilge in the correct Irish spelling) is the genitive form. The base form (now that the nominative of this word is obsolete and replaced by the former dative) is Gaedhilg, with no -e on the end. True, Gaeilge is used for all cases in Galway Irish, but then that is no different to saying that some dialects of English say “you was” instead of “you were”. The fact that the Irish government has “standardized” on the world Gaeilge is also neither here nor there – they have no right to try to change the standard language. Anyone attempting to read the Irish works of the early 20th century (the last gasp of real Irish) will immediately be confronted with the Gaedhilg/Gaedhilge distinction.
Let’s put aside the uneducated morphology and address the meaning. This phrase means “broken Irish is better than clever English”. It is an expression of utter stupidity on the part of anyone who utters this phrase. Nothing of inferior quality is just as good as something done well. If Irish is not going to be taken seriously, it would be better to focus on English instead. If on the other hand, Irish is going to be taken seriously as a subject for study and a vehicle for Irish heritage, “broken Irish” simply will not do.
The rationale behind the “official standard” Irish is that any old thing will do – who cares if it is really traditional Irish or not? It can be endlessly simplified at will by government committees. But the result of that procedure is a type of Irish that is just not traditional Irish. It is “Gaedhilg bhriste” that is being devised and taught nowadays, and Irish people sell themselves and their culture too cheaply when they accede to the notion that broken Irish is somehow a good thing.
Having used this phrase very recently on the Daltai Boards and now reading your comment that anyone who uses it is utterly stupid, let me explain that that particular little phrase encouragd me and still does to keep on learning the Irish Language. I strive to do my best and have completed a diploma followed by a degree in the Irish Language. I will never be what I would consider a fluent speaker, nor does it come totally natural to me but I do enjoy speaking my ‘broken Irish rather than my very fluent and articulate English’ all the time striving to improve my Irish to a point where I will be perhaps considered to be a ‘good’ speaker of Irish. That is why I prefer my broken Irish to clever English, but I would really prefer to have clever Irish – the problem is I don’t at the minute. I speak Irish every day in converstion with other Irish speakers both native and learners, both beginners and advanced. Regardless of how well or not I speak the language I am always encouraged to use what I have and to increase my command of the spoken language and I intend to keep on using my broken Irish until it’s not broken any more. I admire those who are fluent in speaking Irish, perhaps you could even say I am jealous of their ability to converse in Irish so naturally but I accept that at the moment my spoken Irish is Broken but Im so proud of what i have achieved so far and I am not finished yet.
Comment by beanrua — May 29, 2010 @ 8:11 pm
Beanrua, you seem determined to make progress, so I don’t disagree with you!
Comment by admin — May 29, 2010 @ 8:13 pm
Go raibh maith agat, ní dhlifinn a mhalairt díot.
Comment by beanrua — May 29, 2010 @ 11:40 pm
Sinéad ‘from Daltaí’ here David. Okay, I will start using Gaedhilg for the nominative so your rant will not be in vain! (in aisce).
Tá súil agam go bhfuil, a bhfuil, ag éirí go maith leat- sa saol agus sa staidéar.
Comment by Sinéad — June 16, 2010 @ 7:30 pm
oops, I meant ‘a bhfuil ann’. ‘Ann’, a powerful little word.
Comment by Sinéad — June 16, 2010 @ 7:33 pm
Thank you for your comments, Sinéad. Daltaí has been very quiet for weeks now. I always look for your posts there!
Comment by admin — June 16, 2010 @ 8:26 pm
I thought this slogan was aimed at learners mostly, so that whenever they meet a complocated sentence where they might be tempted to switch over to English, they would stay in Irish instead expressing themselves with simplified forms and vocab. It might not be pretty to listen to but at least this way they get practice in the language using the Gaeilge that they do have. This way they will improve more quickly over the long term than if they were constantly slipping back into English every time they felt uncertain about how to say something. You have to speak broken Irish before you can advance to a more advanced level. So in this context, yes, is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste. Expecting someone to speak perfect Irish from day one seems unfair, and although it might not be as nice as Gaeltacht Irish the fact is zou have to put up with it if you want the learners Irish to improve. The is in the context of learning and advancing alone of course, but this is a common context.
On a half-related point:
I have had the “You only have Gaeilge leabhair” lecture spoken down to me before – in English after making an attempt to use the Irish I have, hoping to practice and improve – “way to put me off the language” I thought, “and switching over to English to explain it to me! thanks! – I’m sure I’ll be speaking perfect Gaeltacht Irish in no time if you just keep speaking about it in English to me!” –
It’s funny how if an Italian or Spanish learner of English speaks broken English to native speakers, we usually just put up with it, speak more clearly and slowy. That way they pick up English faster. (ie. for the purposes of their learning and advancing in the language – broken English is better than propper Spanish, again in the context of learning being central.
However such slowing down and simpfzing of Irish with many native speakers this often seems to be “verboten”. I suppose people just don’t get the fact that you have to work your way up through levels and stages in a language to become fluent, and so switch to the “common language” to save themselves the effort of slowing down and simplifying their Irish – something we do with non native-seakers of English all the time.
I might have posted this in mz broken Irish and gotten some valuable practice and improved just a little, but given the way you asked the question I reckon you would probably prefer to read this propper English than my mongrel-mixed-dialect broken Irish.
Slán agus Beannacht.
Shane
Comment by Shane — June 24, 2010 @ 12:05 am
Well, Standard Irish is not “Gaeilge leabhair”, as if it were some higher, literary form of the language. It is just a form of Irish made up by the government, and the real Irish is the Irish of the Gaeltacht. The works of Peadar Ua Laoghaire are Gaelainn leabhair, but not in Standard Irish…
Comment by admin — June 24, 2010 @ 12:08 am
Well it was said in a tone of distain when I heard, like I said “spoken down” – so I actually gathered that the guy wasnt saying it was superior, more like feeble attempts to practice Irish and improve it were in a variant of the language that was inferior! maybe “Gaeilge scoile” would be more appropriate waz to put down my misguided attempts. But tell that to people around here in Conamara.
Anyway, thats really not the main point – the main point is that “Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste” if you are a learner trying to improve your Irish as quickly as possible, ie. by practicing as much as possible. This little slogan is intended for learners, as I explained above, for reasons that I explained above – regardless of which dialect or variant of the language you are trying to learn,(be you in Conamara, Corca Dhuibhne or Tír Connell or a Gaelscoil in the east) it is better to stay in Irish as much as possible just so you will improve faster and achieve fluencey earlier – With this original context intent and meaning of the slogan in mind I do not see how it is “… an expression of utter stupidity on the part of anyone who utters this phrase”.
I don’t see how a phrase made FOR learners and BY learners explaining the best way to practice and advance Irish has ANY connection with the “standardisation vs. Canúintí” debate (a very important debate, yes, of course, it’s just not related to this slogan, which AGAIN, is intended to get learners learners to practice and advance more efficiently.) The poster seems to have taken the slogan completely out of its original intended context – and SOMEHOW attached an absolutely different and unintended meaning to it(?) – something to do with standardised Irish versus the Gaeltacht Irish and “government committees” – an important issue – but a seperate issue completely.
Maybe we should change it to something like:
“Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste…… má tá tú i do fhoghlaimeoir agus ag cleachta agus ag iarradh do chuid Gaeilge a fheabhsú chomh sciobtha agus is féidir”
This should clear up any furhter wild misinterpretations or misunderstandings of the intent and original context of the slogan in future.
……….. but then again that might be hard to fit all of that on the wall:
https://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2007/mural4.jpg
Comment by Shane — June 24, 2010 @ 5:06 pm
Does the fact that it is poor Irish not happen to be the point?
Comment by Críostóir MacAodha — July 20, 2010 @ 1:29 am
Nicely put.
I agree, I think the biggest reason the Irish language isn’t spoken much, taught correctly, and is hated by many, is the fact that it is not taken seriously.
“Modern Irish” (as in the drivel currently taught in schools), is a farce of a language. Bearlachas to the highest order.
Vardrús= wardrobe ??? Since when was there a feckin v in irish! Why can’t we do like the scots do and use taisgeadach?
There are countless examples of this in irish.
Another being the word used for frog. I was always told in school it was frog (frug)!! It turns out there is a perfectly good irish word for frog loscann, that has been used for centuries if not millennia, yet we use a gaelicized english word!
Scots Gaidhlig has around four words for frog/toad non of which is of english origin, one of which is losgann (equivalent to loscann).
If we do have to find new irish words, why dont we take them from Gaidhlig a sister language to our own (almost a fourth dialect), instead of making some half-arsed attempt at moulding some sort of perverted english adaptation to suit the purpose.
To be honest whoever is in charge of standardizing irish; they need a good ciceáil (yet another example of bullshit irish), up the hole!
Comment by Aaron — October 31, 2011 @ 1:45 am
Aaron, your idea of finding Irish words for everything is just as fake as the Standard Irish. Because native speakers in the Gaeltacht don’t use Irish words for everything, and finding Scottish Gaelic words is artificial, as it would mean foisting words that native speakers of Irish don’t use onto the language. The word for “frog” is “frog”, because that is the word that native speakers use. The people with Irish words for everything are all in the Galltacht. Have you seen that focal.ie has “deicire” for “decking” (wooden patios). I wonder how many, if any, native speakers have heard that word?
Comment by admin — November 4, 2011 @ 5:07 pm